'you're wrong,' nicely

[jinian]

You know what else? I become much more certain of facts when I'm talking to someone I don't like. I think that's why I get uncomfortable when my (geek-boy for the most part) friends are very definite in contradicting me. It's not because I don't like being wrong, because they're wrong fully as often as I am, even when they're sure they're not. (Not that I don't hate being wrong, but I don't think that's all there is to it.)

So since when am I so worried about people not liking me? Heh. I'm not, for most people. Those people I don't like are right sometimes too, but mostly I don't really care whether they think I'm bitchy as long as they concede I'm smart. [Note jumping-off point for standard does-this-make-me-bad digression.] People I like, though, whose opinions I respect, I'm more careful to treat gently, so it weirds me a bit when they don't treat me the same way. I know perfectly well that vehement disagreement can be a mark of respect, but it's a hard translation to make when it means the opposite in my head.

Comments

[torquemada.livejournal.com]

I can personally attest to jinian's assertion that she lets people who are wrong down gently.

[jinian.livejournal.com]

Well, not always, but I do try.

[torquemada.livejournal.com]

Well, you've been pretty good about not biting my head off, unless you're generally cranky. Or I'm just not noticing anything as being abnormal.

[rosefox]

You jump back and forth between factual debate and opinion debate there. Does one bother you more than the other, when it's between-friends-yet-vehement? Vehement debate over verifiable facts annoys me hugely no matter who's doing it; I become a stuck record on the track of "Look it up. Look it up. Look it up.". Vehement debate of opinions annoys me because it smacks of evangelism, and I end up stuck on "There is no right answer; this is all opinion. There is no right answer; this is all opinion.". So if it helps, you're unlikely to hear me ever vehemently debate anything. *)

[torquemada.livejournal.com]

And you're in the running for being my second-favourite person for this week.

[rosefox]

*beam*

[elynne.livejournal.com]

Well, that's just about exactly what I said in the other iteration of this post, but much more coherently and stuff. :)

[jinian.livejournal.com]

Well, the interesting thing about that is that I noticed while writing that I might be jumping back and forth, and I disregarded it because they feel like the same thing. I think that, when someone is holding tightly to a fact in the face of opposition, on some level it's because they have an opinion about that fact. I am not saying this very well. Maybe I'm just expecting everyone to have honed their discussion skills in alt.poly again. :)

My broken record is somewhere in between yours. It goes something like, "No source is correct, let's check again, and we can change our minds anytime we want." It's not very catchy, unfortunately.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

You are certainly smart, though I can't say I've ever seen you bitchy. [I know, I'm sure you must have been at some time, but I haven't observed it.]

I won't presume to be one of the people whose opinion especially matters to you, but I will say that if I note you in factual error, I'll make an effort to tell you in a polite way. I'd hope you'd do the same for me, and I think you would.

in the other iteration of this post, elynne said:

[jinian.livejournal.com]

"For me, it's very very much a matter of how disagreement is phrased. "I disagree with you about this" opens a conversation; "No, you're wrong and I'm right about this" is a closing statement that is, at base, essentially impossible to disprove because it translates as "You're wrong and I'm right, so you should agree with me, and if you don't then there's something wrong with you." Not that I read a lot into statements like that, or anything. :P

"Even so, I take statements of "You're wrong and I'm right" vastly better from somebody who only uses them when they are actually 100% certain that they are right - instead of from somebody who hasn't a dingo's kidney of an idea what the smeg is going on, but uses the "statement of authority" tactic to either look smart or avoid disagreement.

"I'm an opinionated bitch. I don't have a problem with other people being opinionated - but I really, really don't appreciate intellectual bully-games. I'll discuss, debate, and argue, but if the person I'm disagreeing with starts resorting to dirty tactics, I will too, and I'll win. ;)"