political. depressing.

[jinian]

"The day after the election I forced myself to confront reality: millions of Americans have more contempt for gay marriage than they have for Abu Ghraib. It doesn't matter that the candidates had similar positions on the first issue and never debated the second. It was the perception of their positions that made all the difference, and for the majority of the country the Bill of Rights and the Geneva Conventions just didn't make the "values" cut." (Releasing the Hounds by Laura Fokkena, via pleonastic. Wish I had more to say about this, but "I remain very unhappy; read what she says" is about the size of it.)

Comments

[tiassa]

One thing that bothers me about commentary of that sort is the automatic assumption that if one voted for Bush, one must be virulently homophobic. Or frothing-at-the-mouth pro-war. Or somehow under the impression that Bush is Teh Gratest Person Evar. I'm sure it's true of some people who voted for him, but I know that I don't fall into any of those three categories.

RE: political. depressing.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

that's not my assumption, not in general, and not in this specific case (and i very much doubt it's laura's) -- i don't hold absolutist views on anything, and i don't expect other people to be extremists. however, a vote for bush does allow his administration to continue doing those things instead of sending him a message that this isn't what america stands for. that makes bush voters complicit to some degree.

furthermore, it would be nice if i saw any bush voter get really upset about homophobia, torture of prisoners, the death of civilians in iraq, the treatment of arab-americans. i haven't seen it. i'd appreciate links if you have. i'd also like to hear from bush voters who have written to him, or to their representatives, about these issues, and expressed their concern about them.

Re: political. depressing.

[tiassa]

The statement "millions of Americans have more contempt for gay marriage than they have for Abu Ghraib" is the kind of thing to which I refer - I honestly don't see how voting for Kerry would've somehow conveyed the opposite message.

Also, do I need to give you links or can I just tell you that I'm a Bush voter who doesn't consider herself homophobic and who doesn't approve of prisoner torture?

Re: political. depressing.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

considering kerry's record, he's shown that he's not in favour of torturing prisoners. his stand on same-sex marriage doesn't please me, but i trust him to learn better -- a heck of a lot more than bush (that infamous "wishy-washiness" to my mind stands for somebody who is not too proud to change his mind when he learns new facts; something i value greatly).

i believe you when say you're not in favour of torture etc, but that doesn't change the fact that i've not seen bush voters speaking out loudly against it. i don't mean in reply to posts such as this, saying "well, i am not homophobic", but unprompted, in their journals, to their fellow bush voters, in letters. because your president thinks he has a mandate, and who better to remind him that, uh, no, you don't agree with these policies? otherwise it counts as silence, and niemöller had just the right thing to say about that.

(he was, in case you don't know, a german pastor in the 1930s, a pacifict who said about the failure of the germans to speak out against the nazis: "First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.")

i think it is extremely important to speak out and "police your own". i'd feel a lot more comfortable if i felt this were as much of a virtue on the right as on the left.

Re: political. depressing.

[tiassa]

because your president thinks he has a mandate

This is exactly my point. How is he "my" president? I didn't want him. But I didn't want Kerry, either. I think the fact that I thought, 'well, this monkey agrees with me 50% of the time while the other monkey only agrees with me 45% of the time' hardly makes him "mine." I voted for the monkey with the extra 5% and the Congressmen I thought would be helpful, and now I badger them with letters until they think I'm some kind of crank. That's the best I can do right now, because "none of the above" wasn't an option on the ballot.

Also, I've seen Bush voters complaining about issues as well. Just because you don't see it, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I haven't seen people speaking out against a lot of issues that I'm big on, but that doesn't mean I'm throwing up my hands in despair and exclaiming, 'Oh no! Nobody is being vocal in my presence! That must mean NOBODY CARES!'

Re: political. depressing.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

"your president" because you're an american and i am not. writing letters is a good thing. i am glad you do it; too many people don't. writealetter might be of interest, somebody just pointed that out to me as a new community.

indeed, just because i don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. that's why i asked for links. i am not getting very far googling; i run into too many right-wing hate sites.

i've already said that i don't hold absolutist views, so i am not sure for whom that NOBODY CARES bit was meant. i know millions of people care. just that too many didn't care enough.

Re: political. depressing.

[tiassa]

I've run into a lot of left-wing hate sites, myself. So.

I'm just disgusted by most political discourse overall. It all turns into endless repetitions of left-wingers saying they're intellectually superior and right-wingers saying they're morally superior and goes absolutely nowhere. It's the kind of thing that makes me glad I'm a fence-sitter.

Re: political. depressing.

[jinian.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'm feeling pretty morally superior right now. At least, if moral superiority includes horror, I am. If it's smug, not so much, because I am alarmed, upset, and sick, and I don't understand.

I'm sad about it, because I like you, but I do have to count you among the people for whom something was somehow more important than prisoner torture and the destruction of your own civil rights. And I'm still not clear on what that is. I don't even know where to start.

I think there's a very deep division between the far right and our so-called left that makes it very hard to talk about our differences. Axioms usually aren't subject to too much debate, so we don't know how to do it. Maybe there's not a way. I think a lot fewer people hate anybody than it seems like; I'm stuck here with no way to talk to Bush voters beyond "what on earth could you be thinking?", and I don't hate those people, I'm just frustrated and boggling. I know they're people too, and they must have reasons, but I haven't seen anyone laying out for me in words I can understand what could be stronger for them than the factual actions taken by the Bush administration. I made a post talking about my views just prior to the election, and I've talked about it a bit since (more obliquely because I'm still freaked out), but what I want to see is someone who voted for Bush and knows his opinions saying why they voted for him. You don't seem to have links handy, which makes sense if you dislike reading political discourse, but I really wish someone had any for me. Maybe after my last final today I'll have a chance to try to find some.

Re: political. depressing.

[tiassa]

I don't think the way you do. That much is quite obvious. Therefore, I can't come up with any common ground on which to explain my beliefs on various issues - all I can do is say that yes, I studied out issues extensively and made a decision. I feel it's the right decision, no matter what other people say or how stupid people tell me I am. I understand that when I chose based on certain issues, there were other things that I don't like that had to come with it - but there wasn't anything I could do about that.

And this isn't even a division between "far right" and "left" - I'm guessing you're left and I'm a moderate. If we can't understand each other, I don't know what hope there is for true rights and lefts to do so.

And no, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to dig up links. I could find some, but I really don't like thinking or talking about politics these days.